Author Topic: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block  (Read 26195 times)

Offline Daviticus

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Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« on: April 11, 2009, 10:34:01 AM »
I've been doing some reading on D-series.org recently, and there seems to be a lot of misinformation and very little credit concerning these particular builds. Other heads have been swapped successfully [somewhat], but I would be the first one to attempt the 3-stage VTEC head transplant onto a D17.

There ARE people who have done this [an older D-series VTEC head on a D17 block] though there were different approaches and sacrifices with each individual build, and the people who have done it are not willing to share their information due to a very critical audience. There's also the question of practicality, ie, "Why go through all that work for .1 litres of increased displacement?"

I'll start with some basics.

The D15B 3-STAGE VTEC HEAD
-Known as the D15B in Japan, not to be confused with the non-VTEC, and VTEC D15Bs; outside of Japan it is referred to as a D15Z7.

-This is one of Honda's efficiency gems that never made it to the United States, being used on the EK3 VTi and Ferio Vi. A portion of this technology isn't foreign to US soil, however, as the Civic HX on our side of the pond uses VTEC-E, which deactivates one intake valve per cylinder to run the engine in 12v mode [VTEC-E is essentially the 2nd "stage" in the 3-stage VTEC head].

-The 3-stage VTEC head runs in 12-valve mode with both solenoids unpowered. As the first solenoid is powered, oil pressure activates the remaining 4 valves and the head is engaged with all 16 valves on the low-cam profile. As the second solenoid is powered, the head behaves as any other VTEC head, by allowing oil pressure to activate the usual VTEC setup, engaging the high-cam profile to all 16 valves.

-This system's operation is comparable to Nissan's SR16VE and SR20VE Neo-VVL engines, which is often referred to as "VTEC for a Nissan".

THE HEAD BOLTS TO THE BLOCK.
-This is a common misconception, that the D17 is an "odd" D engine, and shares little similarity to its' more popular D15/D16 [henceforth referred to as D1x] VTEC brethren. The head physically BOLTS ON, however the main differences are the two front [exhaust side] oil drains. On a D1x engine, the drains are on the far corners of the head, where on a D17 the drains are between cylinders 1 and 2, and between 3 and 4.

-Here's a view of the D1x [in this case, a D16Z6] headgasket laid on a D17 block. The oil drain differences are quite obvious.


-Here's a view of the bottom-side of a D1x [D16Z6 again] head. Note the oil drains on the bottom of the head as pictured.


-Aside from the oil drain issue, there isn't any noteworthy issue with physically bolting the head onto the block. Some have voiced concern about the drains at the rear [intake side] of the block not matching perfectly to the gasket, but there is enough seal there that it shouldn't be a problem.

-At least one "D17Z6" build has simply blocked off the front oil drains and left the head to drain out the rears only - this does lead to oil pooling and an eventual leak, but it does function. I want to avoid the pooling issue altogether and install external drains into the front of the head and block.

-Taking cues from LS/VTEC oil supply setups, my thoughts are to tap and plug the front oil drains on the D1x head, then drill and tap the side of the head for oil relief. Using the same method to drill and tap the block's drains, it would be simple and effective enough to add a tube between the fittings on the head and block for drainage. At that point, the head is sealed by the headgasket and newly-installed plugs, but the block still has exposed passages. Due to the odd shape of the D17's drains, the only viable option would be to weld them shut [I suppose a "cold" alternative to welding would be to fill the passage with Devcon] and machine the block's deck.

More info to come. Please discuss.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 11:49:17 AM by Daviticus »
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Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Rabbit

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2009, 12:45:50 PM »
*WHOOOOSH*

That was the sound of it going over my head.
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Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2009, 01:42:26 PM »
I don't know how else to explain it, and I would rather have insightful comments or input compared to "lol wtf i dont get it".
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Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Rabbit

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2009, 05:02:14 PM »
BTW pictures didn't work for me.

I mean I guess I understand the basics of it.
So you're doing this to be different right?
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Offline Jeffrey

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2009, 05:20:21 PM »
Jesus, it's a combination of the Power of VTEC with the efficiency of VTEC-E

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2009, 05:22:14 PM »
Jesus, it's a combination of the Power of VTEC with the efficiency of VTEC-E
they already are fuel efficient! Can't you just be happy with what's easier?!
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Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 05:47:44 PM »
Nope! Haha.

I'm trying this for a number of different reasons:
-Many say it cannot be done easily
-A 3-stage VTEC head has not been swapped onto a larger-displacement block that I'm aware of, including the D17
-There is no replacement for displacement
-To discover the tuning and efficiency potential of a 3-stage system both naturally-aspirated, and with forced induction.

And to be different, I guess. I'd be the first person to attempt such a head swap on a D17, and I'd be the first person to swap a D17 into a wagon.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Jeffrey

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 06:13:05 PM »
I would do anything to see that system under reliable boost.

T'would be most awesome.

Offline DustPan

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2009, 06:15:42 PM »
are they adding bore or stroke to get the extra .1 liter?
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and to dustpan, i have heard through the grapevine you are damn good with hondas and may be able to offer assistance.....

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2009, 08:49:00 PM »
The D17 is a longer-stroke, and shares the same bore as almost all D-series engines [75mm].

There are hybrid engine builds that use the D17 stroker crank in a D16 block and B18 rods, but those are too crazy for my tastes. They don't bolt in, so a lot of machine work is required, which is reason enough fr me to use the entire D17 bottom-end.

I figure at a respectable 8psi from a T25, with an efficient intercooler setup, I can see 220whp.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:39:55 AM by Daviticus »
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline DustPan

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2009, 01:02:32 AM »
that's sick i got some zc dohc high comp pistons we should run in there too. is deck height the same?
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and to dustpan, i have heard through the grapevine you are damn good with hondas and may be able to offer assistance.....

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2009, 08:13:12 AM »
Yes, deck height is the same. - This I'm not sure about, still chasing numbers to find out.

The timing belts are even interchangeable.

I had been researching cam and piston options, and it seems the D16Z6 and D16Y8 cams are good upgrades, though I've also been looking at some of Bisi's cams. of course, to maximize efficiency and power, I was thinking of having a custom grind made, as the lobes for the 1st stage are almost round, very little lift and duration.

This site is a great tool for information on the D15Z5: http://causeforalarm.thecarthing.com/version6/version6.EG/3-stage_VTEC/index.html
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:23:11 AM by Daviticus »
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2009, 08:38:39 AM »
Okay, according to the D Series Engine Wiki [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_D_engine ] the D17As all have a 75mm bore and a 94.4mm stroke, so yes, the bores are the same, with 4.4mm longer stroke.

I am being led to believe the D17 has 27mm compression-height pistons, where the D16 has a 30mm compression-height. Wait, found a nice tidbit of information @ [ http://www.d-series.org/forums/engine-building/12592-d15b-experts-pistons-do-i-want-look.html ],

d15/17 bore: 75mm
vtec d15 piston compression height: 27.75mm
d17 piston compression height: 27mm

Looks like I may be able to use D15B VTEC pistons in this build, to really bring up the compression ratio.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:41:57 AM by Daviticus »
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2009, 08:59:52 AM »
Another update, with good information.

Found @ [ http://www.knology.net/~jediklc/pistonnotes.htm ]:

Using a D17 crank in a D16:

D17 Crank = 94.4 mm stroke
D17 Rods = 137mm
D17 Pistons = 27mm compression height

You need to use the D17 oil pump because the snout on the crank is much thicker then the y8 crank. No problem because it actually bolts on like a champ. Problem, there is no accommodation for a dip stick, the y8 pump has a hole in it for the dipstick the d17's pump does not.

The D17 rods are thinner at the crank end than D16 rods, so some machining may be needed depending on the rod you use.


So it may be very possible for me to completely skip using a D17A, and simply build a stroker out of a D16 block ... that could potentially eliminate ANY issues with stuff not matching between block and head. I'll keep doing some digging on this and post up.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Yom

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2009, 06:00:27 PM »
keep going Dave!  This is giving me many bad ideas for when I get a single cam!

And the D16 stroker sounds familiar.  I'm gonna dig through my issues of Honda Tuning cause I remember it being in one of them

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2009, 06:52:34 PM »
From what I recall reading, there was an article in a Honda Tuning magazine, and the only reason it's familiar to me and my searching was because they mentioned that a D17 WOULD NOT bolt into place of a D16. Boy were they wrong, the D17 shares all the mounting points of other D-series engines, and bolts to any D transmission.

I want to rock the native engine family for the wagon as long as possible - I don't like adapter kits and custom flywheels, since it's hard to replace individual items especially if a company no longer offers them or even goes out of business. The more OEM or off-the-shelf aftermarket stuff I can use, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Hell Yom, you get a single-cam, and I'll build you one of these bad boys for a GOOD price. ;D
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Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Yom

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2009, 07:13:29 PM »
I just found said article!  They used a D16A6 block out of a CRX Si, D17A7 crank, oil pump, oil pan, oil pick up and main cap seal.  The pistons are 04-05 Civic GX pistons, the GX was Natural Gas powered. 

And if it works for you then you can build one for me Dave

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2009, 07:17:29 PM »
Did they say what rods were used? I'm guessing they used the D17 components.

I work on GX Civics all the time [I work for a company that does CNG installations and repairs], I may be able to chase a set down for a decent price. The D17A7 should be the CNG engine as well, if I recall correctly [that, or the HX VTEC-E version].

Any possibility you could scan or photograph said article for me? I would love you long time!
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Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Yom

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2009, 07:20:33 PM »
yeah they are using D17 rods, sorry I missed that.  I'll just let you borrow the mag for as long as you need to seeing as you are the one who's gonna be trying this

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 05:22:05 AM »
Sweet dude, it's much appreciated.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Teknik_DC2

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2009, 12:36:18 PM »
Very interesting dave.  Good luck with this.

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Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2009, 12:40:04 PM »
Thanks Jeff. We should try a build like this in your Del Sol, haha.

I'm looking for 220-240whp, and 35mpg. Think I can do it? ;D
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline DustPan

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2009, 01:37:11 PM »
This sounds sick. I would make sure you go I beams if you put rods in it. The H beams barely clearance after much machining in the d16 on stock stroke. I think those ZC pistons will fit.
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and to dustpan, i have heard through the grapevine you are damn good with hondas and may be able to offer assistance.....

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2009, 06:58:16 PM »
I'm not so sure about the pistons ... what's the compression height of the DOHC ZC pistons?
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline suspendedhatch

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2009, 07:20:49 PM »
Well since you mentioned me...

I'm selling my 3 Stage VTEC swapped VX.

It's run by a P28. The VTEC-E solenoid is connected to ignition power, effectively locking it into 16 valve mode. VTEC works as it normally does.

Runs really really good and takes off fast. It's faster than I remember my friends B16 was.

My wife has the D17A2 in her 01 EX. The engine is great as IMO there's no benefit to swapping to a 3 Stage head unless it bumps the compression (there are better ways of doing that). Her car gets 38 mpg freeway and makes good power. Imagine what it would do in a lighter chassis. In other words, just swap the whole motor.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2009, 07:37:50 PM »
Well since you mentioned me...

I'm selling my 3 Stage VTEC swapped VX.

It's run by a P28. The VTEC-E solenoid is connected to ignition power, effectively locking it into 16 valve mode. VTEC works as it normally does.

Runs really really good and takes off fast. It's faster than I remember my friends B16 was.

My wife has the D17A2 in her 01 EX. The engine is great as IMO there's no benefit to swapping to a 3 Stage head unless it bumps the compression (there are better ways of doing that). Her car gets 38 mpg freeway and makes good power. Imagine what it would do in a lighter chassis. In other words, just swap the whole motor.

Hmm. Interesting.

I want to experiment with the 3-stage VTEC setup just to see what kind of efficiency and powerband it can create, and figure there's no replacement for displacement so the 1.7-liter bottom-end would be an interesting addition on top of that.

We'll see how things go.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2009, 09:58:51 AM »
This sounds awesome Dave. Keep it up.
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Offline Ninja

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2009, 11:19:13 AM »
Any progress?

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Offline egab

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2009, 12:25:21 PM »
Good luck on the build. It'll be sick when it's done. Keep us updated.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2009, 05:39:06 AM »
I haven't looked any further into actually procuring the parts to try this, as I've got other projects on my plate right now. Though I would love to have a stroker D in the wagon.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline slomofo

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2009, 10:23:44 PM »
Sounds like a cool little project, good luck with that and be sure to do a write up so the rest of us will know how to build something like it some day.

Offline cf17081

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2009, 12:06:38 AM »
I dont understand a thing about the stage 3 vtec... damn i have a lot to learn!

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Offline suspendedhatch

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2009, 03:17:59 PM »
I dont understand a thing about the stage 3 vtec... damn i have a lot to learn!

Well it's SOHC so it acts on the intake cam only.

Stage 1 (0-2500 RPM): VTEC-E 1 valve per cylinder is closed; effectively giving you 12 valves. This has the same effect as squeezing a water hose... it squirts the air into the cylinder.

Stage 2 (2500-5500 RPM): Now the valves open up giving you all 16 valves. Now that the RPMs have picked up a bit, the engine is drawing in more air so you just need to get out of the way and let it in.

Stage 3 (5500-7300 RPM): VTEC Now both intake valves lock onto a higher cam lobe with more duration and overlap to pull more air in within the limited amount of time you have with the engine spinning so fast.

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2009, 07:07:02 PM »
Thanks for the simple explanation. When I explain stuff like this I get too technical and end up confusing more people than I help.

I do intend to pick up a 3-stage engine to initially swap it as-is into the wagon, and mess around with the 1.7 bottom-end in my current SOHC ZC block. IF everything I've read so far is true, I should be able to bolt everything into the 1.6 block, and only have to worry about the dipstick not fitting [D17s don't have a hole in the oil pump to allow the dipstick through, where the D15/6 do, I guess].

I do also want to experiment with boosting both powerplants. Nothing serious, maybe 10psi out of a Nissan T25 is all. I want to avoid having to custom-grind a cam for the 3-stage head, as the VTEC-E intake profile is almost round, very little lift and duration - that's a good portion of where the economy [the other portion being the swirl effect having one valve open creates] this engine produces comes from.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline cf17081

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2009, 09:38:49 PM »
Well it's SOHC so it acts on the intake cam only.

Stage 1 (0-2500 RPM): VTEC-E 1 valve per cylinder is closed; effectively giving you 12 valves. This has the same effect as squeezing a water hose... it squirts the air into the cylinder.

Stage 2 (2500-5500 RPM): Now the valves open up giving you all 16 valves. Now that the RPMs have picked up a bit, the engine is drawing in more air so you just need to get out of the way and let it in.

Stage 3 (5500-7300 RPM): VTEC Now both intake valves lock onto a higher cam lobe with more duration and overlap to pull more air in within the limited amount of time you have with the engine spinning so fast.


Thanks... I understand a little bit better, I really need to do some more research about motors in general just as daviticus has been doing.  I am a horrible student lol.

Jk im a somewhat newb thats learning.

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Offline Omido Style

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2009, 11:07:05 AM »
This is near the lines of what I am building currently, I have a D16Y5 head, going on a built block, on a forced induction app.  What I am hoping for some high TQ numbers, and a wide powerband.

I'm thinking of getting a regrind on the stock cam, it needs to be more aggresive.  IIRC, Bense on Honda-Tech has alot of threads floating around with lots of useful info about the Y5 and D15B head.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
The Y5 head is VTEC-E only, correct? Should be crazy amounts of torque for a 1.6.

Bense is the guy to read up on, agreed.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Omido Style

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2009, 01:29:24 PM »
Yeah, not quite the D15B head, but it should produce some interesting numbers.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2009, 09:56:10 PM »
I'd be interested to see what your setup puts out, it'll probably be done long before I even source all the parts for this build. I'll have to compare the 12- and 16-valve profiles of the VTEC-E camshaft with the first two stages of the 3-stage cam ... if I can produce something close to your power before activating VTEC, then it should be a pretty nice monster of an engine on the high-cam.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Omido Style

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2009, 02:29:12 PM »
are you planning to put this in the wagon??

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2009, 02:36:56 PM »
This is making me want to find a 3 stage head for my all motor setup. Couple that with the d2b conversion i'm researching and it should be a really fun single cam.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2009, 03:37:25 PM »
Yes, this would be going into the wagon. I should probaly be shopping for the '90-'91 RT4WD trans, as it's got the proper sline count for the clutch (unlike '88s odd pattern and '89s proper pattern but small clutch setup) so that I could use just about any off-the-shelf D-series clutch. But that's for another thread ...

If I could use an MFactory gearsetin the RT4WD trans that would be my first matter of modification, but that's the trade-off for having AWD.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline bopApocalypse

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2009, 08:15:53 PM »
Yes, this would be going into the wagon. I should probaly be shopping for the '90-'91 RT4WD trans, as it's got the proper sline count for the clutch (unlike '88s odd pattern and '89s proper pattern but small clutch setup) so that I could use just about any off-the-shelf D-series clutch. But that's for another thread ...

you should be able to get an 89-91 - with the regular fwd L3 trannies, the difference btw 89 and 90-91 is all in the flywheel - the trans itself doesn't care what clutch/pp you use.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2009, 05:26:22 AM »
Thanks Bob. Didn't think anyone would catch that, I was just too lazy to edit my post, haha.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline egab

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2009, 12:03:41 PM »
Are you going to do a custom regrind on the cam?

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2009, 04:46:32 PM »
I want to avoid having to custom-grind a cam for the 3-stage head, as the VTEC-E intake profile is almost round, very little lift and duration - that's a good portion of where the economy [the other portion being the swirl effect having one valve open creates] this engine produces comes from.

I'd like to try to keep the stock cam, possibly swap out a cam from a Z6 or Y8 just to see what kind of low-end performance I can get from it. The beauty of the 3-stage head is its cam profile for VTEC-E ... being so shallow, it gets amazing efficiency. If I can get the proper specs compiled, I can probably pitch it to Bisi or another company like Web Cams or Exospeed to build a set of custom cams, but that could get pretty spendy, so a one-off would be the most likely outcome if I were to go with something other than an off-the-shelf replacement.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2009, 08:16:19 AM »
I forgot you posted that. According to Bisi the lobe seperation is different on the 15b and z6/y8 camshaft. However Bisi does make several different cams for the 15b even a turbo profile.
http://bisimoto.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_9_31_131&sort=20a&page=1

Offline suspendedhatch

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2009, 08:36:07 AM »
The 3 Stage Cam lobe heights are identical to the Y8, so there'd be no benefit to swapping the cam if it were possible.

http://causeforalarm.thecarthing.com/3-stage_VTEC/index.html

The secondary cam lobe is of course the closed VTEC-E lobe. As you can see it's identical to the Y5.

The difference is of course that the 3 Stage starts with one intake valve at 36.6 and the other at 32.3, then both lock at 36.6. The D16Y8 has one intake valve at 36.7 and the other at 37 the whole time. Then both switch to 38.2 when they go into VTEC.

Theoretically, if both were in the same chassis with the same transmission, the 3 Stage would beat the Y8 off the line and the Y8 would never get a chance to catch up. But what is even MORE interesting is that the Y5 would beat them both. The one caveat is the rev limit of 6500. The Y8's rev limit is 7200 and the 3 Stage's rev limit is 7300.

Remember I said the same TRANSMISSION. The 3 Stage and the Y5 come with long geared trannies that would need to be swapped for a VTEC tranny for a fair comparison.

The Y5 starts with one lobe at 38.4 and the other at 32.3. Then they both switch to 38.4. And the Y5's exhaust lobe is at 38.8, while both the 3 Stage and the Y8 are only 38.

One final thing I should mention is that JDM cams have more overlap than USDM cams due to our tighter emission standards, giving them a small but significant increase in power.

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2009, 10:09:00 AM »
^ Holy shit, thanks for pointing that out! I've been on your site numerous times, and never even noticed the sidebar for cam specs. That's kickass.
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2009, 11:38:29 AM »
My Y5 I had came with the optional 4.25 final drive, making it nearly identical to the Y8 transmission

Offline Daviticus

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2009, 02:19:43 PM »
Definitely post up your build stuff, I'd be very interested to see how it performs. VTEC-E ftw!
Quote
Of course the bandwagon is nearing the end of its shelf life. It's gone from foreign, to underground, to baller, to overdone, to being supported by the entry-level aftermarket. That's usually when things are about to die off.

Just waiting for the next trend.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Offline Omido Style

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2009, 03:22:12 PM »
I'm gonna make a build thread eventually

Offline eg6(S)

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2013, 01:29:07 AM »
Sorry to revive an old thread but has anyone on here actually completed a 3-stage vtec build??


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Offline ricehonda

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2013, 03:14:19 PM »
Intersted in this as well.....
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Offline unified11

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2013, 06:22:24 PM »
Nope.

Not very common at all, and don't think it has happened locally.. hence this thread back in '09.

Google searching is your best bet, and from my quick attempt they all dead-end quite rapidly with no good information.
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What the fuck are you saying. None of your posts make any god damn sense.

Offline EFmorethenEG

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2013, 07:44:34 PM »
I feel like this post just makes it look harder. -__-

Offline eg6(S)

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Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2013, 05:43:12 PM »
Trust me I have googled it for days.. I'm almost done with mine. I'll have to post my mileage on here when it's done. It's at Dustin's shop having some headwork and timing done. Hopefully have it in the car this week or next.

3 stage vtec d15

Ex Trans with CX 4,5 th

Going in a.... Wait for it..... Integra. Lol. Before you slam me about sohc integras being retarded and totally unpractical, Sohc's come in Jdm dc1's so don't care to hear if you don't like the idea haha. My build is all about function and comfort not looks or morality. ;) it's going to get me to the canyons (snowboarding) and back for next to nothing at least 4 times a week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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 95 SI (Flaming Cheeto)- SOLD
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 99 DX Sedan - SOLD
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Offline ricehonda

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2013, 06:33:17 PM »
Nice Post up pics and results!!!
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Offline suspendedhatch

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2013, 12:29:57 PM »
Mine wasn't a "build", just the 3 Stage VTEC with JDM LSD trans, light flywheel, AEM EMS and bolt ons.

Offline ricehonda

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2013, 02:03:56 PM »
Was it fun N/A? words
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Offline eg6(S)

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2014, 11:28:07 PM »
Ok, updates coming soon. The motor is done and the car is 90% ready for the swap. Updates and pics coming soon!


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Offline ricehonda

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2014, 11:17:04 AM »
If you check out d-series.org theres a few other people that have done this stroker build too...... pretty cool stuff
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Offline eg6(S)

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2014, 11:40:23 PM »
Ok. Motor is in and done. Time for break-in and a dyno tune!!





This whole sohc in a Teg thing is hectic to say the least, but after making custom AC lines and modifying the PS to work its all ready for DD duties.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:55:14 PM by eg6(S) »


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 99 DX Sedan - SOLD
 06 *Slammed* non-functional scion Xb - SOLD :,(
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Offline ricehonda

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2014, 12:10:09 AM »
damn I was actually kinda hoping yours would be N/A just to see what kind of torque it makes without boost helping out
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Offline eg6(S)

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2014, 12:14:39 AM »
No torque here. I had to ditch the d15 short block for the taller  stroke and deck height d16. :( shame for sure


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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2014, 01:27:42 PM »
How much did it make?? if you care to share your secrets:)
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Offline eg6(S)

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Re: Theory Build: D15B 3-Stage VTEC Head w/D17A Block
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2014, 10:13:39 AM »
200 hp. On 11 psi. I need a new downpipe. The one I have is terrible.

So far the mileage has been in the low  40's still need a few things it get it into the 50's  I am planning on swapping this into a rt4wd wagon so that I can both shed weight and increase daily drivability in the winter. More to come soon


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 95 SI (Flaming Cheeto)- SOLD
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 92 EG6 GBP - SOLD
 92 EG6 Captiva blue - Project status
 99 DX Sedan - SOLD
 06 *Slammed* non-functional scion Xb - SOLD :,(
 05 Fully Built EVO 8 MR - SOLD
 93 eg d-power sedan  - Gas Milage got me - Daily